Re: Zesty lemon Saison
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:28 pm
I'm sipping on one of these. Right now it's cold. So here are cold perceptions. I will edit this post and give warm ones after it warms up a bit.
Cold - A good bit of the strong earthy notes that were mentioned above are from the boiled Sorachi ace flavor/aroma additions. I know this because I've done the same thing and it tastes exactly like it. And I think what Kealia is describing as "horse blanket" is actually also mix of that earthy/vegetal flavor that the Sorachi has when boiled mixed with the slight funkiness that the Bella/French saison brings. The earthy/vegetal flavors I'm talking about are like something like coconut with all the sweetness ripped away and some dill weed and cilantro got mixed in with the lemon - I think if you try it again and look for those flavors you will see what I'm talking about. Those flavors are primarily from the hops, not the yeast. The yeast on it's own is a bit tart and citrusy, a bit peppery, and a bit funky, but not anywhere near as strong as the flavors here.
But honestly this beer does not taste heavy of horse blanket / strong sweaty / leathery funky to me at all. A little funk sure due to those weird vegetal flavors and the little bit of bella funk, but not that... if you want to know what a beer that tastes like horse blanket and leather tastes like to me is then try an older bottle of Orval Trappist (look for a bowling pin shaped bottle wherever the Belgians are). The older the better. Very fresh Orval can be quite mellow. But very old Orval can be really intense in the funk department.
If this beer was actually sweeter (not a saison) that earthy flavor would actually start to seem "creamy" in my experience with Sorachi due to how the sweetness mixes with what I'm describing as coconut like flavor.
It is a bit acidic, has a touch of astringency - I think that's from the lemon zest. If the beer wasn't so dry I don't think it would stand out so much. It also might not stand out as much without the dill weed and cilantro like flavor I'm describing kind of getting tangled up with it. But because of using Bella/French saison, it's bone dry, so little things like that will really pop to the front and nail you.
Short version is that this tastes more like a hop forward Sorachi beer then a true Saison when cold.
Note that that earthy (or creamy due to the coconut like vibe if the beer was sweeter) and dill weed flavors from the Sorachi don't exist if you just dry hop with it in my experience. So if you try this again, just dry hop all 10 and 5 minute hops and forget about the traditional flavoring/aroma addition. I think that would improve this beer immensely in the minds of a lot of you. As a dry hop you just get lemon grass like flavor/aroma. If you try a bottle of "A Sorachi Ace" you will see more of what it is like straight up dry hop. (it is just as dry as this beer though... maybe even drier... but is also more lemony).
I will say that also this exact same beer with Nelson Sauvin hops or some other fruity Aussie hop (or even Amarillo) as a replacement instead of the Sorachi would likely taste better to most of you - assuming you aren't a nelson hater. Still more like a pale ale then a true old world Saison. But tasty.
Also the bittering addition could be reduced, because a 1.002 FG beer doesn't need 35 IBUs to seem balanced. 27 IBUs or so would probably be better/more then enough in this beer. The extra IBUs are part of why it's not as smooth as it could be and seems soo dry. I always suggest that if you look at that old BU-GU balance chart based on OG and you are using Bella or French saison to shift the scale one level down because of how dry it ferments out. A bit less bitter would smooth it out some. I know that style wise they say 25-45 IBUs, but I think the higher numbers should only be used when you are using a Belgian yeast that happens to be used as a dual purpose yeast for Saison (like say Belgian Ardennes, which can make good Saison if you add enough bittering to lower the perceived sweetness and use some sugar adjunct... or even good old T-58 dry yeast with some sugar). But French Saison and Bella are not normal critters so it changes the "rules" as such.
To smooth out the bittering in hop forward saisons with higher AA hops (which I brew as pale ale replacements when it's too hot for me to make a pale ale) I've simply eliminated the traditional bittering addition and just do only T-20 and < hop additions. For traditional saisons, I would follow a more traditional schedule with low AA hops, or use a high AA hop with the flavor profile I'm looking for as a single T-20 addition (same with short boil Belgians). IE French Aramais is a good choice as a single T-20 addition for any Belgian or Saison that you want to have a more traditional flavor profile for.
WARM: I still taste everything I taste above, but it does smooth out a bit, the little bits of astringency go away. Enough of a hint of sweetness comes through and takes out the rough edges of the rest and helps blend it. But I still do taste the same earthy/vegetal flavors from the Sorachi. And a good bit of them are for sure from the Sorachi. Those flavors don't play with the yeast flavors as nicely as a French or German hop would, or a different sort of fruity hop would. I still do think with only a small bittering charge and a dry hop and nothing in between this beer would improve a lot too. Just because of those Sorachi flavors I keep mentioning.
Note that I do not dislike this beer, I'm happy to be drinking it. It would be good after mowing the lawn. But I do think I understand what is a bit odd for some of you about it. Because you don't normally get those kinds of flavors in beer, so it is a bit weird and it takes away from the lemon vibe that was intended.
I will add - do not let this beer be something that turns you off on Saisons as a whole. What you should be turned off by is a beer with just Sorachi as a traditional flavoring/aroma addition. Because that's what the flavor profile here is primarily being driven from. Honestly. I don't hate the flavors it makes as such, but I've learned that I'm much more a fan of Sorachi dry hop then Sorachi in the boil. Because I've done it. And I've made basically this same beer because of it. That beer got a lot better at 12-18 months of age when the hop flavors faded. But I don't think you want to tie up your keg that long LOL. Dry hopped Sorachi is so much better.
Cold - A good bit of the strong earthy notes that were mentioned above are from the boiled Sorachi ace flavor/aroma additions. I know this because I've done the same thing and it tastes exactly like it. And I think what Kealia is describing as "horse blanket" is actually also mix of that earthy/vegetal flavor that the Sorachi has when boiled mixed with the slight funkiness that the Bella/French saison brings. The earthy/vegetal flavors I'm talking about are like something like coconut with all the sweetness ripped away and some dill weed and cilantro got mixed in with the lemon - I think if you try it again and look for those flavors you will see what I'm talking about. Those flavors are primarily from the hops, not the yeast. The yeast on it's own is a bit tart and citrusy, a bit peppery, and a bit funky, but not anywhere near as strong as the flavors here.
But honestly this beer does not taste heavy of horse blanket / strong sweaty / leathery funky to me at all. A little funk sure due to those weird vegetal flavors and the little bit of bella funk, but not that... if you want to know what a beer that tastes like horse blanket and leather tastes like to me is then try an older bottle of Orval Trappist (look for a bowling pin shaped bottle wherever the Belgians are). The older the better. Very fresh Orval can be quite mellow. But very old Orval can be really intense in the funk department.
If this beer was actually sweeter (not a saison) that earthy flavor would actually start to seem "creamy" in my experience with Sorachi due to how the sweetness mixes with what I'm describing as coconut like flavor.
It is a bit acidic, has a touch of astringency - I think that's from the lemon zest. If the beer wasn't so dry I don't think it would stand out so much. It also might not stand out as much without the dill weed and cilantro like flavor I'm describing kind of getting tangled up with it. But because of using Bella/French saison, it's bone dry, so little things like that will really pop to the front and nail you.
Short version is that this tastes more like a hop forward Sorachi beer then a true Saison when cold.
Note that that earthy (or creamy due to the coconut like vibe if the beer was sweeter) and dill weed flavors from the Sorachi don't exist if you just dry hop with it in my experience. So if you try this again, just dry hop all 10 and 5 minute hops and forget about the traditional flavoring/aroma addition. I think that would improve this beer immensely in the minds of a lot of you. As a dry hop you just get lemon grass like flavor/aroma. If you try a bottle of "A Sorachi Ace" you will see more of what it is like straight up dry hop. (it is just as dry as this beer though... maybe even drier... but is also more lemony).
I will say that also this exact same beer with Nelson Sauvin hops or some other fruity Aussie hop (or even Amarillo) as a replacement instead of the Sorachi would likely taste better to most of you - assuming you aren't a nelson hater. Still more like a pale ale then a true old world Saison. But tasty.
Also the bittering addition could be reduced, because a 1.002 FG beer doesn't need 35 IBUs to seem balanced. 27 IBUs or so would probably be better/more then enough in this beer. The extra IBUs are part of why it's not as smooth as it could be and seems soo dry. I always suggest that if you look at that old BU-GU balance chart based on OG and you are using Bella or French saison to shift the scale one level down because of how dry it ferments out. A bit less bitter would smooth it out some. I know that style wise they say 25-45 IBUs, but I think the higher numbers should only be used when you are using a Belgian yeast that happens to be used as a dual purpose yeast for Saison (like say Belgian Ardennes, which can make good Saison if you add enough bittering to lower the perceived sweetness and use some sugar adjunct... or even good old T-58 dry yeast with some sugar). But French Saison and Bella are not normal critters so it changes the "rules" as such.
To smooth out the bittering in hop forward saisons with higher AA hops (which I brew as pale ale replacements when it's too hot for me to make a pale ale) I've simply eliminated the traditional bittering addition and just do only T-20 and < hop additions. For traditional saisons, I would follow a more traditional schedule with low AA hops, or use a high AA hop with the flavor profile I'm looking for as a single T-20 addition (same with short boil Belgians). IE French Aramais is a good choice as a single T-20 addition for any Belgian or Saison that you want to have a more traditional flavor profile for.
WARM: I still taste everything I taste above, but it does smooth out a bit, the little bits of astringency go away. Enough of a hint of sweetness comes through and takes out the rough edges of the rest and helps blend it. But I still do taste the same earthy/vegetal flavors from the Sorachi. And a good bit of them are for sure from the Sorachi. Those flavors don't play with the yeast flavors as nicely as a French or German hop would, or a different sort of fruity hop would. I still do think with only a small bittering charge and a dry hop and nothing in between this beer would improve a lot too. Just because of those Sorachi flavors I keep mentioning.
Note that I do not dislike this beer, I'm happy to be drinking it. It would be good after mowing the lawn. But I do think I understand what is a bit odd for some of you about it. Because you don't normally get those kinds of flavors in beer, so it is a bit weird and it takes away from the lemon vibe that was intended.
I will add - do not let this beer be something that turns you off on Saisons as a whole. What you should be turned off by is a beer with just Sorachi as a traditional flavoring/aroma addition. Because that's what the flavor profile here is primarily being driven from. Honestly. I don't hate the flavors it makes as such, but I've learned that I'm much more a fan of Sorachi dry hop then Sorachi in the boil. Because I've done it. And I've made basically this same beer because of it. That beer got a lot better at 12-18 months of age when the hop flavors faded. But I don't think you want to tie up your keg that long LOL. Dry hopped Sorachi is so much better.
