Using lager yeast at ale temps

[Beer-lord]

I've been listening to a crap load of podcasts on my morning walks and evening workouts and really loving much of what I'm learning. I most likely will never brew 5% of the things I hear but love learning about it nonetheless.
Recently, there have been a number of brewers testing lager yeast at or near ale temperatures and doing blind tastings and no one seems to be able to tell the difference. I'm sure it varies greatly depending on the yeast you use but what most are doing for lagers and liking is a 1 week ferment at 55-60 then another week at 65 then down to 40 for a week and the results are sounding pretty good.
It might not sound like a major difference but many homebrewers don't have the capability to go below 58-60 so this gives them an option. The suggestion is not to pitch at a higher temperature and get it down to 55-60 but pitch at the low temperature from the start and keep it there for the first week or so and then let it free rise for a D-rest.

I'm sure there are lots of opinions and I know there are a number of the Borg who've done this so feel free to share your thoughts on this.

[LouieMacGoo]

Although my basement can get pretty cool in the winter I really don't have a way to control temps for lagering and for me right now it's too much of a hassle to do it. With my last brew I did I experimented using WL Cream Ale Yeast which is a highbred blend or both Lager and Ale yeast and I was able to keep the temp right around 66* F and I am really pleased with the way it turned out. I've actually been thinking of using this yeast to brew psudo-lagers or pilsners.

I think a lot of what we "know" about brewing and in this case yeast is based on traditional brewing methods and commercial brewing and when you scale this down to what we do as homebrewers it doesn't have the same impact as far as throwing off flavors and other undesirable results.

Good topic.

[mashani]

I'm mostly an ale man, but 56 is as low as my basement gets in the winter unless I don't heat my house to a temperature that everyone else can tolerate. So the few lagers I brew every year besides steam beers have all been done at 56-59. I've just fermented them out there, done a d-rest if needed (but I don't seem to need to do a "warm it up" d-rest if fermented at those temps very often, just extended time in the fermenter works on its own - but I do pitch a lot of yeast, I still pitch at full on lager rates at those temps), and then bottled them. I let them carb up and then lager in the bottle in the fridge. I've had good enough results doing that, that for the few lagers I brew it makes me happy enough. I also tend to brew Kolsch (Wyeast 2565), and other pseudo lagers, super clean IPA (IPL Like?) beers IE with Notty with a high pitch rate at those temps, so that limits the number of true lagers I have time for before my temps get warmer again.

I believe BigPapaG has fermented with 34/70 at pretty warm temps - well up into the 60s - with good results. Based on what he said about his experience, I might brew some extra lagers this year that way and see what happens.

One thing to consider is that the really traditional lager temps just happened to be the temps the brewing caves stayed at... the strains that would ferment that cold became the lager strains in use at the time. And a big part of what was considered so clean about those old world lagers was not just because the yeast was clean at those temps, but that other beer infecting organisms HATE them. So in a world with out star-san and one-step, where ales were more often then not bretty or would go sour or get more funky with age, those new fangled lagers would be super clean and super stable comparatively speaking. If fermented closer to the 60s, that would not be the case - so regardless of clean fermenting characteristics at those temps or not, in the traditional old world sense you would have been crazy to ferment a lager at anything approaching ale temps. You would have ended up with bretty or sour ale like beer anyways over time and your yeast strain could ultimately get contaminated. But as long as you kept it fooking cold, that didn't happen very easily because nothing else likes it that cold, so the lager yeast rules all.

So how much of that tradition carried into modern practices once sanitation became a non-issue (people often don't remember this wasn't really even fully understood until the late 1800s... old world isn't that old!), and simply has remained tradition because of that (like many brewing things that were passed down) - that's a good question... which these types of tests are good for pushing the boundaries of.

[Beer-lord]

I used 1007 German ale yeast at about 58 for a faux lager and you could not tell the difference.

What is really another topic is also interesting and that's using Pilsner malts with ale yeasts. Here's to more fun in our breeding future.



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[mashani]

What is really another topic is also interesting and that's using Pilsner malts with ale yeasts. Here's to more fun in our breeding future.

I do that all the time for Belgians, for Kolsch, and I've done SMaSH pale ale/ipa beers with Pilsner too. I see nothing "weird" about it. Lots of deliciousness was created.

EDIT: Except for the breeding part. That is weird. LOL. (gotta love yer autocorrect).

[Dawg LB Steve]

My North Port Pils that won Bronze in Ohio Brew Week 2014 was done with S-05 and kept at 64-65 degrees. Also Blackduck has been using a dual yeast format on his last couple RCE's, which is kind of interesting in itself.

[BlackDuck]

My North Port Pils that won Bronze in Ohio Brew Week 2014 was done with S-05 and kept at 64-65 degrees. Also Blackduck has been using a dual yeast format on his last couple RCE's, which is kind of interesting in itself.

Yup...I did a Cream Ale with jimjohson and am doing another cream ale with FIT right now. I use one pack of S-05 and one pack of W-34/70 at the same time. The one going right now is fermenting at appx 61 degrees. After primary and when the airlock stops, I'll step it down 5 degrees per day until it reaches the mid 30's, then hold it there for a week or so. This low temp will also act as the cold crash. I found this technique while researching cream ales.

The first time I did this method with Jim, it feremented around 65 (so it's a few degrees lower this time). It was also bottle conditioned, and it poured CRYSTAL clear after a couple of weeks in the bottle. So clear, you could read the newspaper through the glass. I'll keg it on the recipe I'm doing now. It produced a really good beer the first time, so that's why I'm doing it again.

[Beer-lord]

Steve, I routinely use ale yeasts at the lower extremes of the package and many times, even lower. But now that you mention Chris' mix, I don't know if it makes any difference but based on what I've listened to, they never talked about using dry yeast in any of the experiments, only liquid. I assume it makes a difference but have no idea. I rarely use dry but plan on trying a lager this winter but it's going to be a hoppy one, of course!

[Dawg LB Steve]

You, brew something hoppy? Are you sure???? I just don't see it from you!!!!

[Beer-lord]

You, brew something hoppy? Are you sure???? I just don't see it from you!!!!

Let me go sick on you for a minute (warning given to not read the next sentence)

I FART HOPS!

I'm awesome because I just came up with a future beer name, Hoppy Fart IPA brought to by PAB's Brewery!
I amaze myself and many others way too often. The Borg should pay me for this.

[BigPapaG]

As Mash said, I have had really good success with W-34/70 at temps up to about 68°F.

The key is to have the first two or three days of primary as cool as you can get them, allowing it to warm for the latter days.

Although i have also gone balls to the wall so to speak and pitched at 68°F and let it do what it wants after that. Just seems to get kinda fruity...

Here's a trick for using lager yeast at ale temps...

Plan your wort and it's OG to be higher than desired, and use refrigerated top off water (shades of Mr. Beer) to get the temp of the wort down into the high forty, low fifty range if you can... Then pitch.

Cover your fermenter with a wet T-shirt (swamp cooler), set it on a cookie sheet and drop an ice pack or two on it.
Wet the t-shirt every day and change the ice out every 12 hours...

Even in a 70°F house I can maintain lower to mid 60's this way, but the first couple of days were lower so that helps.

Because it's a lager, be sure to raise the temp a few degrees very near the end of primary to allow for a good cleanup.