I've always figured I wouldn't like Belgians or saisons, just based on their description. But a coworker gave me a hard time for ruling out whole styles of beers (he was astonished that somebody who brews his own and grows his own hops would be so restrictive).
So last week, while I was traveling, I stopped at a picobrew. They had a couple of really interesting looking IPAs on tap, but the only beer they'd fill a growler with was a saison. I could find another brew pub, skip the growler fill, or expand my horizons.
So now, after a long history of liking only APAs and IPAs. Oh, and I guess Browns are ok. And Stouts. And Porters.
I now find that I also like saisons.
I know they ferment at higher temperatures, but how hot is too hot? I'm traveling regularly and I've been turning the air conditioning off when I leave. So it probably gets into the upper 90s, but I keep the fermenter in the basement, so it probably only gets into the 80s.
Since I don't always know when I can brew, is there a decent dry saison or belgian yeast? Can I ferment a saison or a Belgian in the mid 80s with a dry yeast?
How hot is too hot?
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Re: How hot is too hot?
Half of what I make are Belgians and Saison, so I'm glad you are no longer a heretic 
Bella Saison is the one and only dry Saison yeast that is truly a Saison yeast.
It can ferment anywhere from 60-85 or so for sure and make good beer. (I know because I have)
It does not *need* to get into the 80s to make good beer. Anywhere in the 70s will give you nice saison like flavors. But 80s won't make it go bad.
It will be mellower below 70, but still make good beer.
It is a similar, if not the same yeast as Wyeast 3711 (French Saison), just in dry form.
I will mention that it is not normal Saccharomyces, but instead a selected mutant of Saccharomyces var. diastaticus, which is normally considered a wild yeast, IE a beer infecting agent. It does not act like normal yeast. It does not have an "attenuation range" as such. It can eat starch. It can eat complex sugars from a high temperature mash. It normally will ferment out ANYTHING (it doesn't matter what your OG is) down to 1.003 or <, maybe even as low as 0.997 or something stupid like that. If it doesn't do that for some people then I have no idea what they are doing, because I've never had it finish at less then 1.004 even in a 1.08 beer. The important thing about this is sanitation. Make sure you kill it if you plan on making things that are not saisons. Otherwise you will get gusher infections or bottle bombs in a future batch of non-saison beer. If you use a spigot, disassemble it and sanitize it. I should also mention that if it is exposed to oxygen for a long enough time after fermentation is complete, it can actually form a pellicle. If left that long it may also coat the sides of your fermenter with a film, and you will have to wipe it down. It can do that in bottles too. It might do it in kegs (I don't know I don't have a keg). But don't freak out if you see one or this happens, it's fine, just bottle it. Most people don't because they ferment with an airlock and bottle it before it forms. But it can form one given enough time and some oxygen exposure. It is a wild thing.
So consider your bittering additions, and the actual amount of ABV you want carefully. (BU:GU scale means nothing, 1.048 beers can be 6% abv).
It will have some spice, some citrus and fruit, be somewhat tart, and very dry.
Now if you want to go into the 90s - even 100s... and don't mind liquid yeast - then Wyeast 3724 can do that. It pretty much requires 80+ degrees to finish. It likes 90. Or 97. I've done that. I don't know where it gets mad, except for below 80. It doesn't like it much below 80. It will still work, but it will take forever to finish unless you get it hot. This is the strain used in Saison Dupont if you want to know what it tastes like (think spice and bubblegum). And they push it way up in temps too. It won't hyper attenuate like Bella Saison/3711, so some sugar might be good if you want it drier, although it will still attenuate > 80% if you get it hot enough.
As far as Belgian strains, YMMV - IE if you took WLP500 up into the 80s you'd have a massive banana and bubblegum (and not in a good way like 3724) bomb... but I will take Wyeast 3787/WLP530 up to 78 or so during active fermentation, because it makes the best flavors if you do that IMHO. 80 is fine. I try not to go above 80, but it is probably ok if it goes a bit higher then that.
As far as other dry yeasts, you can make a saison like substance using T-58 if you get it up to 75-80, and use 20% or more sugar in your grain bill. It will be very peppery and will have some banana and bubblegum. It won't be as restrained as 3724, especially when young, but it will mellow a bit in the bottle. I used to do that before Bella Saison came to the market. You need lots of sugar though, otherwise it won't attenuate enough to be saison like.
Hope that helps.
Bella Saison is the one and only dry Saison yeast that is truly a Saison yeast.
It can ferment anywhere from 60-85 or so for sure and make good beer. (I know because I have)
It does not *need* to get into the 80s to make good beer. Anywhere in the 70s will give you nice saison like flavors. But 80s won't make it go bad.
It will be mellower below 70, but still make good beer.
It is a similar, if not the same yeast as Wyeast 3711 (French Saison), just in dry form.
I will mention that it is not normal Saccharomyces, but instead a selected mutant of Saccharomyces var. diastaticus, which is normally considered a wild yeast, IE a beer infecting agent. It does not act like normal yeast. It does not have an "attenuation range" as such. It can eat starch. It can eat complex sugars from a high temperature mash. It normally will ferment out ANYTHING (it doesn't matter what your OG is) down to 1.003 or <, maybe even as low as 0.997 or something stupid like that. If it doesn't do that for some people then I have no idea what they are doing, because I've never had it finish at less then 1.004 even in a 1.08 beer. The important thing about this is sanitation. Make sure you kill it if you plan on making things that are not saisons. Otherwise you will get gusher infections or bottle bombs in a future batch of non-saison beer. If you use a spigot, disassemble it and sanitize it. I should also mention that if it is exposed to oxygen for a long enough time after fermentation is complete, it can actually form a pellicle. If left that long it may also coat the sides of your fermenter with a film, and you will have to wipe it down. It can do that in bottles too. It might do it in kegs (I don't know I don't have a keg). But don't freak out if you see one or this happens, it's fine, just bottle it. Most people don't because they ferment with an airlock and bottle it before it forms. But it can form one given enough time and some oxygen exposure. It is a wild thing.
So consider your bittering additions, and the actual amount of ABV you want carefully. (BU:GU scale means nothing, 1.048 beers can be 6% abv).
It will have some spice, some citrus and fruit, be somewhat tart, and very dry.
Now if you want to go into the 90s - even 100s... and don't mind liquid yeast - then Wyeast 3724 can do that. It pretty much requires 80+ degrees to finish. It likes 90. Or 97. I've done that. I don't know where it gets mad, except for below 80. It doesn't like it much below 80. It will still work, but it will take forever to finish unless you get it hot. This is the strain used in Saison Dupont if you want to know what it tastes like (think spice and bubblegum). And they push it way up in temps too. It won't hyper attenuate like Bella Saison/3711, so some sugar might be good if you want it drier, although it will still attenuate > 80% if you get it hot enough.
As far as Belgian strains, YMMV - IE if you took WLP500 up into the 80s you'd have a massive banana and bubblegum (and not in a good way like 3724) bomb... but I will take Wyeast 3787/WLP530 up to 78 or so during active fermentation, because it makes the best flavors if you do that IMHO. 80 is fine. I try not to go above 80, but it is probably ok if it goes a bit higher then that.
As far as other dry yeasts, you can make a saison like substance using T-58 if you get it up to 75-80, and use 20% or more sugar in your grain bill. It will be very peppery and will have some banana and bubblegum. It won't be as restrained as 3724, especially when young, but it will mellow a bit in the bottle. I used to do that before Bella Saison came to the market. You need lots of sugar though, otherwise it won't attenuate enough to be saison like.
Hope that helps.
Re: How hot is too hot?
He's got you covered, and probably knows way more than me. But, I'm brewing up a saison today using Bella. I like my saison in a traditional sense, not over spiced, not too lemony. I made the BCS version last year and it was great. This year's version uses the grain bill of Tom Fitzpatrick's last saison, but I kept the hop schedule of BCS.
I had a great example of what I like last week in Cleveland at Nano Brew.
I had a great example of what I like last week in Cleveland at Nano Brew.
Re: How hot is too hot?
Thanks guys. That's good info.
I ferment in plastic buckets. From the sound of things, if I use the Bella saison, I assume I have to keep that bucket for just saisons from then on. Is that right?
I ferment in plastic buckets. From the sound of things, if I use the Bella saison, I assume I have to keep that bucket for just saisons from then on. Is that right?
Re: How hot is too hot?
Meh. I've reused my plastic carboy with no problems. Or none that I've noticed.
Re: How hot is too hot?
I'm hooked on Belgians/Saison and I've brewed quite a few now. Have had some hit in the mid 80's and some I've done cooler and all comes out good. Bella is one hell of a good yeast. I've pitched it dry and re-hydrated with good results on both.... What Dave/mash tells is good, he is where I learned to brew that style of beer and make it come out good....................
Happy Hound Brewery
“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
― Thomas A. Edison
“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
― Thomas A. Edison
Re: How hot is too hot?
I got an email that there are a number of new Mangrove Jack yeasts and some of those look interesting, also.
Re: How hot is too hot?
No don't worry about your bucket. It is fine to use it for other beers.
Saccharomyces var. diastaticus is still yeast, it is a large organism compared to bacteria. It is not going to "hide it the cracks" like if you were using lacto.
So as long as you sanitize you are fine.
It's mostly spigots if folks don't clean them well that are going to be issues.
The recipe Mr. Band Guy posted looks solid to me, although there is no way it will end up at 1.010 in my experience with Bella/French Saison. If using Belgian Saison then maybe it would. But with Bella, it will probably be a lot lower and close to 7% ABV. When I make "session saisons" with Bella they are always < 1.05.
I like my saisons both in a classic style (Mr. Band Guys recipe is actually a little bit more flavor hoppy then totally classic style) and also as a more hoppy version like Mr. Band Guys recipe, and also with spices/fruit/juice added. I also sometimes make what amounts to "Saison APA/IPA", but not with a lot of bittering (doesn't need it), but with a lot of late hops like Nelson Sauvin or the like. I like them anyway and everyway.
I always like a bit of wheat in them regardless.
I think I'm going to make one soon with Nelson Sauvin and some plum juice. Because... I... can...
Mangrove Jack M29 might be derived from the same strain as Bella / Wyeast 3711, but I don't know for sure since I have not used it. The only thing that makes me wonder is that they list temperature range as 79-90, and I can tell you for sure that Bella or 3711 doesn't need to get that hot. (it can, but it doesn't need to). What does need to is Belgian Saison strain.
Saccharomyces var. diastaticus is still yeast, it is a large organism compared to bacteria. It is not going to "hide it the cracks" like if you were using lacto.
So as long as you sanitize you are fine.
It's mostly spigots if folks don't clean them well that are going to be issues.
The recipe Mr. Band Guy posted looks solid to me, although there is no way it will end up at 1.010 in my experience with Bella/French Saison. If using Belgian Saison then maybe it would. But with Bella, it will probably be a lot lower and close to 7% ABV. When I make "session saisons" with Bella they are always < 1.05.
I like my saisons both in a classic style (Mr. Band Guys recipe is actually a little bit more flavor hoppy then totally classic style) and also as a more hoppy version like Mr. Band Guys recipe, and also with spices/fruit/juice added. I also sometimes make what amounts to "Saison APA/IPA", but not with a lot of bittering (doesn't need it), but with a lot of late hops like Nelson Sauvin or the like. I like them anyway and everyway.
I always like a bit of wheat in them regardless.
I think I'm going to make one soon with Nelson Sauvin and some plum juice. Because... I... can...
Mangrove Jack M29 might be derived from the same strain as Bella / Wyeast 3711, but I don't know for sure since I have not used it. The only thing that makes me wonder is that they list temperature range as 79-90, and I can tell you for sure that Bella or 3711 doesn't need to get that hot. (it can, but it doesn't need to). What does need to is Belgian Saison strain.
Re: How hot is too hot?
I'm going into Salt Lake tomorrow to take my daughter to dinner. I'll stop at the Beer Nut and see if they carry any dry saison yeasts (the car will get too hot for a liquid yeast, even one that likes it hot).
If that doesn't work, I'll check online.
If that doesn't work, I'll check online.
Re: How hot is too hot?
Oh, I should mention since you mentioned Belgians that Abbaye dry strain is a most excellent Belgian yeast.
I know Mangrove Jack has a bunch of options, but I've not tried them. I like Abbaye enough and Mangrove Jack isn't sold by anyone I normally buy from.
Abbaye is fine if it gets up to 75-80 degrees too in my experience.
I know Mangrove Jack has a bunch of options, but I've not tried them. I like Abbaye enough and Mangrove Jack isn't sold by anyone I normally buy from.
Abbaye is fine if it gets up to 75-80 degrees too in my experience.