Hello Borgies and Borgettes. So I've been wanting to brew an Oktoberfest beer for a couple years, the true way- lager yeast, full lager fermentation, decoction mash. I have the capability to ferment cold and cold lager so that when Fest season comes, the beer will be ready. I'm really wanting to do a decoction mash to really bring out the malty flavor. I'm familiar with the process but there is some confusion as to how to execute it. Am I supposed to rest the grains and immediately decoct a portion? How long do I boil the decoction? I want the whole process to take maybe an hour, much like a typical infusion mash.
It should be noted that I typically will perform an infusion mash in my cooler. With a decoction process, I should still be able to put my grist into the cooler while the decocted portion boils, but I'm worried if I don't hit my temperatures that I'll have to heat the mash directly on the burner to bring it up to temp. Should I just try to do the mash in my kettle and then wash it out when I'm ready to lauter the wort into it for the boil?
It's not that I can't just make my grain bill so that I can introduce the flavors I want via a standard single infusion. It's that I want to learn the process and add it to my brewing repertoire. I want to learn how to do this.
Considering decoction mash for Oktoberfest beer.
Moderators: BlackDuck, Beer-lord, LouieMacGoo, philm00x, gwcr
Re: Considering decoction mash for Oktoberfest beer.
I hear you. I have seen recipes with specific amounts to decoct, as well as boil times. BrewersFriend has a calculator for step mashes using boiling water additions. I searched "decoction mash calculator" and got several results. HBT has a decoction recipe called "World's Best Oktoberfest", you might get some ideas there. Let us know what you decide, I'd like to try this sometime too.
Making beer and stew for the Zombie Apocalypse.
Never mind, there it is.
Never mind, there it is.
Re: Considering decoction mash for Oktoberfest beer.
BeerSmith has single, double, and triple decoction mash profiles already in the software and it tells you how much to decoct, but it doesn't say how long to boil the decoctions for. So, in theory, if I decoct what it says to, when I add it back to the mash tun it should raise the temperature to the specified rest temperature.
I've got my recipe set up for a double decoction right now. Initially I was going to have a single decoction but doing a double decoction would allow the wort to be more fermentable and thus should let the yeast attenuate as low as I want it to.
One of the side effects that decoction mashing provides, unbeknownst to me previously, is that it also makes a clearer wort due to filtering of break proteins after every boil of every decocted portion. For the sake of a lager, this is one of my goals because it is meant to be crystal clear.
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I've got my recipe set up for a double decoction right now. Initially I was going to have a single decoction but doing a double decoction would allow the wort to be more fermentable and thus should let the yeast attenuate as low as I want it to.
One of the side effects that decoction mashing provides, unbeknownst to me previously, is that it also makes a clearer wort due to filtering of break proteins after every boil of every decocted portion. For the sake of a lager, this is one of my goals because it is meant to be crystal clear.
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Re: Considering decoction mash for Oktoberfest beer.
The decoction mash calculators are trying to be too fancy and give you some magical exact amount to decoct and add to bring your temps exactly to where you want them by pouring the whole decoction back in based on thermal mass, your mash tun efficiency, and other yada yada.
That's not the way they did it back in the day. They didn't know that stuff and it would have made their brains hurt too much to figure it out. So, the easiest and most traditional way is to decoct and boil more then you actually need to bring you up to the temperature you want for your next rest. And then instead of dumping the whole decoction back in, simply add and stir and add and stir, until your mash temp hits where you want it for the next rest. Then simply let the leftover decoction sit on your stove in the pot until it cools down to where it matches your mash temp and then dump it in - of if it doesn't cool down that low before you pull your next decoction, just incorporate the next one into it and carry on. Worst case when you mash out, you just dump whatever leftover you have back in at that point.
So if you want to use a calculator, go ahead to get an idea of how much to pull, but then pull more then it says (I've always pulled ~20% more then I thought I needed just to be sure, especially if I am boiling it for a long time due to boil off rates in small pots that I've not precisely figured out) and ignore the rest.
The other important thing I can tell you is that to get character from your decoction you have to not just bring it to a boil, but actually boil it for a long time to concentrate and darken the wort. A lot of modern decoction mash "experiments" on the interwebs have totally ignored this and only boiled for 10-15 minutes and then concluded that the decoction did nothing to improve their beer. But to do it right in this regards you should be boiling your decoctions for more like 40-45 minutes or more.
This explains all this and more in great detail, but if you don't want to read all that, just do what I said above, and I guarantee it will work out fine.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... on_Mashing
That's not the way they did it back in the day. They didn't know that stuff and it would have made their brains hurt too much to figure it out. So, the easiest and most traditional way is to decoct and boil more then you actually need to bring you up to the temperature you want for your next rest. And then instead of dumping the whole decoction back in, simply add and stir and add and stir, until your mash temp hits where you want it for the next rest. Then simply let the leftover decoction sit on your stove in the pot until it cools down to where it matches your mash temp and then dump it in - of if it doesn't cool down that low before you pull your next decoction, just incorporate the next one into it and carry on. Worst case when you mash out, you just dump whatever leftover you have back in at that point.
So if you want to use a calculator, go ahead to get an idea of how much to pull, but then pull more then it says (I've always pulled ~20% more then I thought I needed just to be sure, especially if I am boiling it for a long time due to boil off rates in small pots that I've not precisely figured out) and ignore the rest.
The other important thing I can tell you is that to get character from your decoction you have to not just bring it to a boil, but actually boil it for a long time to concentrate and darken the wort. A lot of modern decoction mash "experiments" on the interwebs have totally ignored this and only boiled for 10-15 minutes and then concluded that the decoction did nothing to improve their beer. But to do it right in this regards you should be boiling your decoctions for more like 40-45 minutes or more.
This explains all this and more in great detail, but if you don't want to read all that, just do what I said above, and I guarantee it will work out fine.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... on_Mashing
Re: Considering decoction mash for Oktoberfest beer.
Doing some video research, I found one that seems to be my best source as far as seeing the steps performed for a decoction mash. I gathered that you pull a decoction as soon as the rest temperature you're aiming for is reached, then boiled for anywhere from 10-45 minutes depending on the style of beer. That said, with the style of beer being not quite pale but not dark, I'm going to shoot for a middle ground of 20-30 minutes for each boil.
Mashani, your experience is well received as wisdom, noting that in this video, the guy pulled his decoction and then reluctantly wished he pulled more in order to reach a higher sacch rest temp but settled for the temp reached. In the decoction profile on BeerSmith, it has a mashout step but I think I will forego that step (the guy in the video skipped the mashout step) and just drain the wort into the kettle, sparge as normal, drain again, and carry on with the boil. That, or I will pull a second decoction in order to reach a mashout rest temperature and then proceed as usual.
Re: Considering decoction mash for Oktoberfest beer.
You don't necessarily pull your decoction as soon as rest temp is hit. If you look at some of the charts on the link I posted, you will see decoctions being pulled at 20 minutes into the first rest, 10 minutes into the second, etc. I've always done it that way too, because I figure I want my rest to affect the whole mash before I start pulling out bits of it and shutting down those enzymes in that bit I pulled before they could even do anything. So I never considered pulling it immediately.
The way I look at decoction mashing, is if you are brewing a style that you would only boil for 10-15 minutes, then there isn't a point at all really of doing a decoction, except to say you did it. It's the styles where getting some wort changes by boiling longer where the decoction actually does something more significant for flavor.
Usually these days I just do a "pseudo decoction" instead, IE single infusions (or even extract), then pull some and boil it for 45-60 minutes to turn it into a thick darker flavorful syrup and then add that back in. I (and others here) have had good results doing that too. It is a serious time commitment to do a full decoction.
The way I look at decoction mashing, is if you are brewing a style that you would only boil for 10-15 minutes, then there isn't a point at all really of doing a decoction, except to say you did it. It's the styles where getting some wort changes by boiling longer where the decoction actually does something more significant for flavor.
Usually these days I just do a "pseudo decoction" instead, IE single infusions (or even extract), then pull some and boil it for 45-60 minutes to turn it into a thick darker flavorful syrup and then add that back in. I (and others here) have had good results doing that too. It is a serious time commitment to do a full decoction.
Re: Considering decoction mash for Oktoberfest beer.
Fair enough, mashani. I don't plan on boiling the decoction for such a short period of time. I agree that if you just get it to boil and pull it right back in, then it nullifies the whole point of doing the decoction.
I've done a pseudo decoction like you've done before, but I want to get a little more involved in the process with this beer. The biggest benefit I'm looking forward to is clearer beer and increased efficiency. I'm going to set up the recipe at the standard 72% efficiency I typically get, but I won't be surprised to see it closer to 75-80%. Hopefully, with the expectation of clearer wort comes a crisper finish in the beer, as well, as a lager should have.
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I've done a pseudo decoction like you've done before, but I want to get a little more involved in the process with this beer. The biggest benefit I'm looking forward to is clearer beer and increased efficiency. I'm going to set up the recipe at the standard 72% efficiency I typically get, but I won't be surprised to see it closer to 75-80%. Hopefully, with the expectation of clearer wort comes a crisper finish in the beer, as well, as a lager should have.
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