Mash or steep?

[FedoraDave]

I was having a Facebook conversation with Yankeedag yesterday. I was brewing, as I typically do on Sunday, and he was asking me questions about my gravity and such. I listed my ingredients, which included two pounds of 20L, and he asked me how long I steeped them, and at what temperature.

I replied that I crushed all the grains together and they all went in the mash. I've always done it this way. His response was that he used to do it that way, but was noticing a "grainy" taste to his beer, so he stopped doing it, and went with steeping his specialty grains separately and that taste went away.

I've never noticed a grainy taste, although I'll be on the lookout for it from now on. But I'm wondering if there's some common knowledge, or, even better, some articles or studies regarding the effect of mashing specialty grains as opposed to steeping.

[Dawg LB Steve]

My 2 cents. Any of John Palmers books with recipes have dark grains either steeped or added at vorlauf in the mash. Haven't heard that on lighter specialty grains. Has not affected any of my medal winners that I have mashed, even up to C120 in my Irish Red. Sometimes grainy flavors can com from over sparging.

[mashani]

To go further - I've really liked the results of the separate 24 hour "cold steep" of the dark grains in the batches I've done. Smoother but still lots of flavor, and no need for longer conditioning to get everything to "blend", it was just fine right away. Steeps were added in the last 10-15 minutes of the boil too which is supposed to also help. What Dawg said is like that too, except his is late additions of a normal warm steep.

That said I've never separated lighter crystal from a mash, or tried to cold steep lighter stuff.

Although I have contemplated cold steeping some C-20 or C-40 for a bier de mars I have on base, just to see how that works out. So now I think I will just go ahead and do it. Why not. The smoother that beer is the better.

[bpgreen]

I've always just crushed all the grains at the same time and mashed them all together. I always do a partial mash unless I buy a kit that is extract + steeping grains. I never saw enough of a difference between steeping and mashing to go the steeping only route. I've never noticed any off flavors, but I guess I wouldn't taste the difference since I've never tried it any other way.

[FedoraDave]

Thanks for the replies.

Might the special treatment of darker specialty grains be to avoid tannin release? And with the use of such grains as Black Prinz, which is designed to give the color and flavor of Black Patent without the dreaded bitterness, how necessary would it be?

[MadBrewer]

If you are familiar with Gordon Strong's two books, he preaches about only mashing the base grains along with specialty malts that need to be mashed and adding all Crystal and dark grains that do not need to be mashed at the end of the mash or vorlauf. He does this because he uses RO water with very little adjustment from additional minerals. Keeping the crystal and dark grains out of the mash keeps the mash ph in check when he brews this way. Otherwise those grains would easily overpower the very nuetral RO water and cause mash ph to be way out of the ballpark.

To throw that into context of what your friend does, sounds like he may have batches that would benefit from mash ph adjustment and this is his way around it. But, tannins happen with higher ph and caramel and dark malts actually lower mash ph. But if it's a low mash ph issue he could be tasting a harsh, acrid character from those grains and that might come off as grainy, or overall just not as smooth or tasty of a beer.

[Dawg LB Steve]

Thanks for the replies.

Might the special treatment of darker specialty grains be to avoid tannin release? And with the use of such grains as Black Prinz, which is designed to give the color and flavor of Black Patent without the dreaded bitterness, how necessary would it be?

Again my 2 pennies. More for the harshness that can come from dark grains, but again I grind and mash all together. Have not had any hits on my Brown Ale, Irish Red or the Chocolate Stout in comps that have medalled being brewed this way. Could be those guys are super tasters and can pick out very subtle off flavors. Also like MadBrewer said, water chemistry can play into these problems also. It works for me, so until I can notice any off flavors, I'll continue my way.

[FedoraDave]

I'm sure location and water condition play a big part in it. He said that it tasted like the "flour" that you get from your crush.

I've never noticed anything like that, either, so I see no need to separate my specialty grains from my base grains in my mash/BIAB, depending on which process I use.

As with many things, it may come down to Brewer's Choice.

[MadBrewer]

I have always done full mash with all my grains when brewing all grain. I know there are some perks to steeping dark grains seperately but I have never found the need to. I agree...if its not broke dont fix it. But others may benefit from it and thats great. I believe we all have different techniques and process for good reason.

[mashani]

What I liked about my cold steeped stouts is that I was drinking them at 3 weeks in the bottle, and it was as smooth then as it still is now. It was that smooth right out of the fermenter too. I could have just carbed it and drank it immediately if I had a keg.

Where many other things I've made with lots of roasted malt needed a few months to really get what I'd describe as a "slightly rough edge" to mellow out. Not that they were bad, I just liked them better with more age.

That said it might also be that every other bit of my process has been tweaked a bit, IE I now semi open ferment, I pitch a lot more yeast, yada yada... so who knows.