Lager Redux

[John Sand]

I have another lager fermenting, a Bohemian Pilsner. I re-read all of the old threads on lagers, and I guess I'm looking for reassurance.
I pitched 4 packs of 34/70 into 5 gallons of 1.061 wort at 63 degrees. That went onto the 54 degree basement floor. Overnight it cooled to 57, and started bubbling. After 5 days the bubbling almost stopped, the temp dropped to 56. Believing it is nearly finished, I moved it near the furnace where it will warm into the 60s. After a couple of days I will move it back. Another couple of weeks and I will keg and "lager" near the basement doors around 40.
Anything wrong with this? Suggestions?

[berryman]

John, it sounds really close to the way my lager is going too. I am going to rack to a secondary today and take a sample reading and after the rest move back to a cold Lager. I need to use the secondary anyways because I don't want my primary tied up as long as I plan on Lagering for and won't get the time in the keg like yours as I will be bottling mine.

[BlackDuck]

Without any way of a certain temp control like a lager fridge, I think your on the right track John. Your still in the sweet spot of the temp range for that yeast. Although a little lower would have been better. Can you cold crash? If you can, after letting it sit for a couple days in the 60's for the D-rest, I would cold crash for about 5 to 7 days. And make sure you do the D-rest on this since it fermented on the warmer side. Then keg it, hook up the gas and forget about it for about 6 weeks. I lager my Pilsners in the keg and on the gas every time. Works great for me!! I'll be brewing my summer Czech Pils sometime in March.

[John Sand]

Thanks guys.
My old ferm fridge died, and the new/used chest freezer isn't set up yet. If this goes well I'll make a couple of lagers every winter.

[Beer-lord]

I don't brew lagers but this sounds 'normal' to me. I've listen to many podcasts, specifically Brulosophy, that discuss tests at different temperatures though if you have the time, space and equipment, why not do it the 'normal' way.
Wow, 4 packs of yeast? I'd rather overpitch than underpitch but shouldn't 2 be enough? Again, I don't do lagers so I'm just asking.
FYI, if you're interested:
http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

http://brulosophy.com/2016/09/19/lager- ... t-results/

[BlackDuck]

I was gonna comment on the four packs of yeast also, but since it's already been done, I didn't. But since you brought it up, I pitch 2 packs into a 1.048 wort, so he may not be too far off with the 4 packs.

[Dawg LB Steve]

Yep 4 is about whats needed for that gravity lager. Generally 2-2.5 on lager yeast vs ale yeast.

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk

[John Sand]

Thanks again. BrewersFriend called for a lot of yeast. Three of those packs were expired. I know that dry yeast lasts really well, but I figured I should overpitch. Now I'll have fresh slurry for the next batch. I also have a theory on yeast: You will probably be okay if you under-pitch a little, or if you don't aerate enough, or if your temperature control isn't perfect. Don't try two out of three. I aerate by sloshing my immersion chiller and aggressively pouring into the fermenter, you know I used nature for temp control. With the expired packs, I figured it was best to play it safe. I still have 3 expired and one fresh dry pack in the fridge.
I'll report my results.

[Kealia]

In general, it sounds like a solid plan, John. The yeast pitch rate is inline with what would be needed.
It looks like you've got the D-rest / fermentation completing around 60 or so so you should be good there. I'd be inclined to leave it a week at that temp before moving it back to the lower temp, just to be sure. 5 days seems really quick for a lager to be close to finishing - - did you check gravity?

After the D-rest are you able to creep it down to the spot near 40? Instead of going from 60 --> 57 -->40 can you go from 60 --> 55 --> 50 --> 45 --> 40 by creeping closer to the door every few days? Drastic changes in temp can cause the yeast to regurgitate (for lack of a better word) the compounds that they have cleaned up so when I cold crash I move it slowly. Since you don't have a fridge right now I'm wondering if you can fake it by moving a little closer to the door every day or two since you plan a long lager anyway.

Just thoughts to help.

[berryman]

BrewersFriend called for a lot of yeast. Three of those packs were expired. I know that dry yeast lasts really well, but I figured I should overpitch.

I am a big believer in the BrewersFriend yeast calculator even though it sounds like a lot of yeast. Since using it I have made better beer and faster. And when I say faster I don't want a new brewer to get the wrong impression, there is a lot of things to go along with that also.

[BlackDuck]

Good call about the step down in temps Kealia!! I do that with my fermentation fridge.

[mashani]

I don't brew lagers but this sounds 'normal' to me. I've listen to many podcasts, specifically Brulosophy, that discuss tests at different temperatures though if you have the time, space and equipment, why not do it the 'normal' way.
Wow, 4 packs of yeast? I'd rather overpitch than underpitch but shouldn't 2 be enough? Again, I don't do lagers so I'm just asking.
FYI, if you're interested:
http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

http://brulosophy.com/2016/09/19/lager- ... t-results/

John, everyone gave you good advice, so I'm just going to nag on Beer-Lord LOL.

As others have mentioned, that much yeast is normal for a lager, especially if fermenting at traditional lager temps (~50 degrees). I will say that if fermenting a lager at closer to 57 degrees, you probably don't actually need to pitch that much though. But it won't hurt.

As far as doing it the "normal" way, since we do not live in the 1700s anymore and actually have modern sanitation, the need to keep it at ~50 or < isn't as important. Lager yeast is special in that it can ferment at those temps or down into the 40s even compared to ale yeast. But *beer infecting bugs* also do not work well at those temperatures. So if you lived back then, lagers were *effing amazing* because unlike the ales of the time, they could pretty much always last for a long time, brewed over the fall or winter and served at festivals through the year, etc. As long as they stayed in the cold cave, they probably stayed good. Where ales, it was more a matter of luck how long they would stay "good" and also more dependent on your definition of good. I know that most of the large household Victorian ale brews were consumed by the entire household within days of coming out of the fermenter, they just kept cranking them out batch after batch (it was mostly like 2-3% beer and they just drank it all the time, just like how the old Holy Roman Empire abbey brews were made and consumed).

So, it was not simply about "lager yeast being clean" that is a very modern though process. People with non-Viking taste buds probably just liked them better back then because they didn't get fooking sour after a week or a month. And that idea that "lagers are better then ales" and the whole process got carried on with society even post Pasteur, because that was the tradition.

But these days, since we exterminate the bugs, why not ferment warmer if it still turns out indistinguishable from the colder fermented version? It takes less time to brew, it cleans up faster (I have not found that I need to even bother with a D-Rest at all if I ferment at those temps and pitch a lot of yeast and just ignore it for 3 weeks), and it tastes the same. The "crispness" of lager has nothing to do with 50 vs. 57, it's got to do with sulfur and such produced by the yeast that lies below taste threshold and lack of certain types of esters in the final product, it's why Kolsch yeast also has it even though it's an ale yeast and you can ferment some Kolsch yeast as high as the mid 60s and still get that experience. Dropping out even more of any remaining esters bound to polyphenols is what the cold lagering post fermentation is about. But that works with ales too, it has nothing to do with lager yeast or lager fermentation temps at that point.

So, I'm happy doing them at 56-57 in my basement in the winter.

I will use my little fridge and temperature controller I picked up to brew them in the summer, but I'll probably keep it dialed into that same temperature range because it works and there isn't any fuss.

Drastic changes in temp can cause the yeast to regurgitate (for lack of a better word) the compounds that they have cleaned up

I think it's like rapid cooling makes the yeast release some water held in the cells to equalize with changes the osmotic pressure of the solution, except if done too quickly the release might actually make those changes worse, and it might even cause some of the less sturdy yeast cells to kind of blow up or at least trend towards becoming expired and gone to meet their maker as such. In other words very sad.

[Kealia]

In other words very sad.

[John Sand]

Good information.
I didn't check the gravity because it's more work. My basement old and musty. To do a dry hop for instance, I carry the bucket to the kitchen, sanitize the lid, open, add hops, close, carry back downstairs. So I don't check gravity on anything until I package. The fermenter warmed to 61 yesterday, then I moved it closer to the furnace. Probably 65 today, still no bubbles. I'll probably start moving it back in a few days, there's no rush. As far as cooling too quickly, I probably can move it in stages. But the basement isn't a fridge, so cooling there takes place overnight at the fastest. I have two nearly full kegs on right now. They probably will last me until mid March. Before then I will brew again, likely the Going to Hell IPA.

[John Sand]

Kegged today. Attenuation was low, finished at 1.022. I suspect that was more due to poor conversion than any other factor. I had low efficiency on this, maybe because my mash started way too hot. Anyway, the sample tastes good.
Oops! Gravity is 1.013. Forgot to shake the bubbles off the hydrometer. Much lower when I went back.